illain is: 63/24 fish who only folds to cbet 56% yum. I 3 bet him since I got position and crush his range, especially as he only folds 29% to 3bet, double yum. On flop, i'm still ahead of most of his range and tons of draws out there so I decide to bet and arguments can be made to check here for pot control.
Once he calls i'm likely in trouble. Turn I hit my set and main question is should I ever be checking here to avoid flush + induce a bluff from JJ, KQ, KJ, QQ type hands? I decided to bet for value as I felt that he's bad enough to still call with AK and even Q Qd and J Jd. Obviously I lose to QJ but unlikely he has it.
This seems like a straightforward hand but seems like so many other ways I could have played it.
***** Hand History for Game 629772215 ***** (Betfair)
$50.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, January 04, 04:15:52 ET 2010
Table Neon 71 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Seat 1: Sumpura ( $49.25 USD )
Seat 2: achelli ( $35.54 USD )
Seat 3: tsirio65kat ( $39.41 USD )
Seat 4: BrasilNut ( $98.43 USD )
Seat 5: koso19 ( $25.37 USD )
Seat 6: freebird ( $53.20 USD )
koso19 posts small blind [$0.25 USD].
freebird posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BrasilNut [ Th Ts ]
Sumpura folds
achelli folds
tsirio65kat raises [$1.75 USD]
BrasilNut raises [$6.00 USD]
koso19 folds
freebird folds
tsirio65kat calls [$4.25 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8d, 9c, Kd ]
tsirio65kat checks
BrasilNut bets [$9.00 USD]
tsirio65kat calls [$9.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Td ]
tsirio65kat checks
BrasilNut bets [$83.43 USD]
tsirio65kat calls [$24.41 USD]
tsirio65kat shows [5d, 3d ]
BrasilNut shows [Th, Ts ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4d ]
tsirio65kat wins $76.57 USD from main pot
Tt In 3Bet Pot - Draw Heavy Flop!
Started by
BrasilNut
, Jan 06 2010 09:58 PM
3 replies to this topic
#2
BrasilNut
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Posted 06 January 2010 - 09:59 PM
Difficult spot due to awkward stack size of 79xBB and 30xBB invested leaving villian less than a PSB after flop. If villian has a AK KQ type hand then he is playing it very strange and thus his flop CC could mean anything from TP to fdraw or sdraw (oesd or gshot).
I would lean towards checking behind on that 3rd diamond turn after it went CC. But it would also not be incorrect either to shove turn since you have 10 redraw outs if villian hit his draw. Villian is unlikely to shove brick river with just a King even if you check behind so expect a flush/straight if he does so. If villian checks brick river then it is a coin flip if you want to vbet thin or not.
Steve
I would lean towards checking behind on that 3rd diamond turn after it went CC. But it would also not be incorrect either to shove turn since you have 10 redraw outs if villian hit his draw. Villian is unlikely to shove brick river with just a King even if you check behind so expect a flush/straight if he does so. If villian checks brick river then it is a coin flip if you want to vbet thin or not.
Steve
#3
BrasilNut
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Posted 06 January 2010 - 09:59 PM
Villain is: 63/24 fish who only folds to cbet 56% yum. I 3 bet him since I got position and crush his range, especially as he only folds 29% to 3bet, double yum. On flop, i'm still ahead of most of his range and tons of draws out there so I decide to bet and arguments can be made to check here for pot control.
Once he calls i'm likely in trouble.
56% fold to c-bet is a pretty average amount. I think mine is very close to that.
you say that you should bet the flop b/c you still crush the fish's range. The fact you crush the fish's range is not nearly as important is how TT does vs. the fish's check/calling the flop range. I think you're probably still slightly ahead and betting is fine, but anytime you make a bet because you think you're ahead and then you think "once he calls I'm likely in trouble," you've made a pretty big fundamental error.
On the turn I would definitely shove. I don't even think it's very thin. We don't expect the fish to make an hero laydowns, and the likliehood he has a flush or straight at this point is very low. If the turn goes check/check there's a lot of cards that really suck on the river. This might be a pretty interesting spot if you were deepish.
Mark
Once he calls i'm likely in trouble.
56% fold to c-bet is a pretty average amount. I think mine is very close to that.
you say that you should bet the flop b/c you still crush the fish's range. The fact you crush the fish's range is not nearly as important is how TT does vs. the fish's check/calling the flop range. I think you're probably still slightly ahead and betting is fine, but anytime you make a bet because you think you're ahead and then you think "once he calls I'm likely in trouble," you've made a pretty big fundamental error.
On the turn I would definitely shove. I don't even think it's very thin. We don't expect the fish to make an hero laydowns, and the likliehood he has a flush or straight at this point is very low. If the turn goes check/check there's a lot of cards that really suck on the river. This might be a pretty interesting spot if you were deepish.
Mark
#4
BrasilNut
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Posted 06 January 2010 - 10:00 PM
Alex: "Villain is: 63/24 fish who only folds to cbet 56% yum"
Mark: "56% fold to c-bet is a pretty average amount. I think mine is very close to that."
Does that allude to: Mark = average fish? Kidding! I think the title of King Fish would normally be reserved for Ivan but I cannot even say that, because the good fish have the decency to at least show up for their scheduled poker table appointments.
"On the turn I would definitely shove ... We don't expect the fish to make an hero laydowns, and the likliehood he has a flush or straight at this point is very low."
3.5x bet and 3.4x 3-bet pre and 70%p cbet K89dd flop. Even if fish had a pair K's, Alex' range is probably weighted more towards those premium hands such as AK AA KK QQ, which is why I think villian's decision to check-call a drawy flop cbet to be even more bizarre. For that reason alone is why I would weight villian's range more heavily towards the draw. I think villian probe bets KQ KJ type hands on the flop and flat calls any raises (unable to fold TP) and would then donk bet the 3rd diamond turn (if he was a good fish).
"I think you're probably still slightly ahead and betting is fine, but anytime you make a bet because you think you're ahead and then you think "once he calls I'm likely in trouble," you've made a pretty big fundamental error."
This is a very good point that Mark brings up. If I were in your shoes and chose to cbet that specific flop texture holding TT JJ QQ and got called, I would be thinking more towards "no diamond, no Ace, and no 7/T/J/Q" instead of "uh, oh ... my 2nd pair is in trouble". It is very difficult to try and outplay bonafide fish because they are so stubborn at folding and you most likely have to make big hands versus them or just vbet your good hands to death. So your reason for cbetting this flop with 2nd pair should not be hoping he folds King weak-kicker.
Steve
Mark: "56% fold to c-bet is a pretty average amount. I think mine is very close to that."
Does that allude to: Mark = average fish? Kidding! I think the title of King Fish would normally be reserved for Ivan but I cannot even say that, because the good fish have the decency to at least show up for their scheduled poker table appointments.
"On the turn I would definitely shove ... We don't expect the fish to make an hero laydowns, and the likliehood he has a flush or straight at this point is very low."
3.5x bet and 3.4x 3-bet pre and 70%p cbet K89dd flop. Even if fish had a pair K's, Alex' range is probably weighted more towards those premium hands such as AK AA KK QQ, which is why I think villian's decision to check-call a drawy flop cbet to be even more bizarre. For that reason alone is why I would weight villian's range more heavily towards the draw. I think villian probe bets KQ KJ type hands on the flop and flat calls any raises (unable to fold TP) and would then donk bet the 3rd diamond turn (if he was a good fish).
"I think you're probably still slightly ahead and betting is fine, but anytime you make a bet because you think you're ahead and then you think "once he calls I'm likely in trouble," you've made a pretty big fundamental error."
This is a very good point that Mark brings up. If I were in your shoes and chose to cbet that specific flop texture holding TT JJ QQ and got called, I would be thinking more towards "no diamond, no Ace, and no 7/T/J/Q" instead of "uh, oh ... my 2nd pair is in trouble". It is very difficult to try and outplay bonafide fish because they are so stubborn at folding and you most likely have to make big hands versus them or just vbet your good hands to death. So your reason for cbetting this flop with 2nd pair should not be hoping he folds King weak-kicker.
Steve
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